Terry Gerton We’re talking about a subject that is very close to my heart, legal aid, and especially legal aid for veterans. But when we say legal aid a lot of people may not connect that that is an issue for veterans. What have you seen that makes legal issues such a challenge for so many veterans after they leave active duty?

Ron Flagg I think it’s really a combination of a couple things. One, by definition they’re in transition. They’re leaving the service, they may have been there for years, and that means often a move of homes. It can be a reconfiguration of family situations. There can also be veteran specific issues such as a discharge that was less than honorable or veterans benefit issues they’ve earned by dint of their service, medical and health benefits. And, surprise! The Department of Veterans Affairs doesn’t always get that right.

Terry Gerton I think it’s really important to remember that the veteran population is not monolithic, right? We’re dealing with all kinds of demographics in there, folks whose service goes all the way back to Vietnam and even prior to that, and folks who just got out of the military a year or two ago and may have served in other kinds of conflicts. And of course, we have men and women and different ethnicities and all kinds of different backgrounds. What are the issues, the legal issues that veterans are most likely to need help with today?

Ron Flagg Well, homelessness is an issue for lots of people experiencing poverty, and veterans are no exception. And unfortunately, after serving our country, tens of thousands of veterans find themselves without homes. So that’s one. I would say debt collection, again, an issue that confronts many people across economic lines. But certainly, veterans experiencing poverty have debt issues. I think these issues related to discharge status and VA benefits are also prevalent. And family-related issues, again, reconfiguring, reconnecting with their families can often lead to legal issues.

Terry Gerton And typically a veteran is not going to present at a legal aid clinic with just one problem, right? So how complicated is it to sort of get a handle on the nexus of problems that a veteran might face and where to start?

Ron Flagg Let me give you a couple of examples to illustrate that. Let’s talk about Larry Savage, a naval veteran who was living in Louisiana and had been getting VA benefits for a number of years and was able to stay in his home during that period. A clerical error was made by the VA and the VA tried to claw back veterans benefits previously paid and that was going to put Larry out of out of his house. Legal aid came in, and by solving a financial problem, was also able to help with a housing, what would have been a housing issue. Or take Ray Hague, Air Force veteran in Ohio. Ray, between Social Security benefits and VA benefits was living a relatively stable financial existence. Then all of a sudden medical disaster hits, he finds himself in a nursing home, he’s swamped with medical debt, and his whole way of life is threatened by this medical debt. Again, legal aid helps assist, deals with the financial problem, and in doing that takes care of health issues, housing issues, and other related issues.

Terry Gerton Ron Flagg is president of Legal Services Corporation. Ron, LSC has just put out a new toolkit for folks who are in the business of providing legal aid to veterans. Talk us through this toolkit and what’s so important about it right now.

Ron Flagg Well, the toolkit is important for at least two or three reasons. Reason one, as I’ve described, the needs among veterans are very high. Three out of four veterans experiencing poverty confront a serious civil legal issue every year. The toolkit is meant to empower those veterans. It’s meant to help legal aid programs set up clinics to help veterans. And these are not just legal clinics. These are clinics at which legal aid programs are collaborating with health care providers, social service providers, and where veterans can begin to get the kind of services they need to retain their independence and their stability and being part of a community. So I think those two reasons are why it’s so important. And these clinics are based on experiences throughout the country that have been effective helping these many veterans with the interrelated civil legal issues that they confront.

Terry Gerton One of the things that I picked up really clearly in looking at the toolkit is the idea that a veteran shouldn’t just get a referral and be sent on their way, that the concept of a warm handoff is really crucial here. Tell us what you’ve learned there.

Ron Flagg Well, Terry, we’ve all had the experience of waiting for a half an hour for somebody to answer a service line and then finally getting a human being and being told, sorry, I can’t help you, but here’s another telephone number to call. That almost never leads to help. So what we do at these clinics is have all of the service providers in the same room and a person is able to help understand the myriad of problems that a veteran may present. And introduce them live to another human being who can help, whether it be with a health care issue, a social service issue, or a legal issue. And that collaborative approach is really critical.

Terry Gerton You said you’ve tested this toolkit in several communities already. What are the lessons learned that are coming through that you’re sharing more broadly?

Ron Flagg I think collaboration is key. Again, if we just view these as legal issues in isolation, it’s almost never enough. Second, the clinic is not the end of the assistance for the veteran. It’s really the beginning of creating a network of assistance, again, be it health, social service, or legal, that will put the veteran on a path to stability and continuity.

Terry Gerton Who reaches out to you, Ron, to set up these kinds of legal clinics? Is it pro bono attorneys? Is it city governments who are trying to address the veteran need in their community? Who is it that’s starting the process?

Ron Flagg It’s typically legal aid programs that we fund. We fund 129 programs across the country serving every zip code. Or it may be a bar association that has taken veterans issue as an initiative. It can be a government. All of these actors are actively involved. It can pro bono attorneys. They play a significant function in all of our clinics. And the pro bono attorneys again could be from a private bar, they could be from bar associations, and they may wanna organize a clinic because it’s such a successful model.

Terry Gerton For veterans who might be listening to us now, and they’re thinking, wow, I could really use this kind of help. I have a legal problem that is messing up my life. How do they get started and where do they start to look to find this kind assistance?

Ron Flagg Well, they should go to their local legal aid program. And the easiest way to find it is to go to our website at lsc.gov and there’s a Find Help tab. And you just put in your zip code, and you’ll be directed to one of the legal aid programs we fund. And all of our programs are anxious to help veterans. And they should be able to help any veteran who calls in.

Terry Gerton Are there steps that someone should take before they get to the legal clinic?

Ron Flagg I think there are resources online that help veterans identify the type of issues they may have, but I’ve got to say because of this tangled web of issues that crop up, some of them dealing with the VA, some dealing with issues that can confront any person, you often need to talk to somebody to try to unravel those issues and get a full understanding. But they’re certainly at this point in history, a lot of information and resources online. But to understand those resources as a human being is often most helpful.

Terry Gerton Certainly providing this kind of legal aid is a very personal engagement. It’s one-on-one. Every situation is unique. But thinking more institutionally, are there policies or programs or even laws that you would advocate for that might simplify a veteran’s legal situation?

Ron Flagg And Terry, I think a fundamental problem that faces anybody but certainly veterans is the myriad of different government programs and their disconnection from one another. Somebody may have a housing problem, they may have an employment problem, they may a health care problem. So we’re talking about the VA, we may be talking about the Department of Labor, we maybe talking about Social Security. And they don’t talk, those agencies don’t talk to one another very well. And there really is a need for a better identification of what the key issues are in their interrelationship and guidance as to how to overcome that labyrinth. And that’s legal aid plays that role. But legal aid’s ability to play that role is limited by a lack of funding. We are underfunded. Lots of legal aid programs are under funded. And money isn’t the answer to everything. But it’s certainly a necessity. And legal aid has been perpetually underfunded for the last 50 years. Some of that resource constraint is now being addressed by technology and volunteers. And certainly LSC is a leader in helping our grantees use AI to improve their internal processes but also improve their ability to reach out to people who need help and to provide help to those people.