[MUSIC PLAYING] FLORA LICHTMAN: Hi, I’m Flora, and you’re listening to Science Friday. In 2020, Deb Haaland was serving in Congress representing New Mexico’s first district when she got a new job offer. Joe Biden had just won the election, and he wanted her to be part of his cabinet as Secretary of the Interior. She accepted and became the first Native American appointed to a cabinet position, a new chapter for a woman who already had been through many chapters.

In her new memoir, A Voice Like Mine, Haaland writes about that cabinet job, her path to politics, and how she’s not like other politicians– no Ivy League education, no high-up connections. She’s a recovering alcoholic who graduated from college at age 34, had a baby four days later, and went to law school as a single mom, a member of the Pueblo of Laguna tribe who ran her own business and managed a casino along the way. And now, she’s planning her next chapter. She’s running to be governor of New Mexico. Deb Haaland, welcome to Science Friday.

DEB HAALAND: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here, Flora. Thanks for having me.

FLORA LICHTMAN: We’re so happy to have you. These days, do you identify as a politician? Does that word sit right with you?

DEB HAALAND: I mean, I suppose I am a politician. I’m in politics. I love politics, quite frankly. I love it for likely different reasons than maybe other people do. But I feel more like an organizer. I love that title.

I organized for a long time in New Mexico before I ever ran for office, helping to make sure people were registered to vote, getting out in underrepresented communities. So, I mean, I’m not offended if somebody wants to call me a politician, but I have a lot of other identities also.

FLORA LICHTMAN: You write in the book that you have a rebellious streak. How did that manifest, and how does it manifest now?

DEB HAALAND: Yeah, my rebellious streak was– and I was different from my siblings in this way. I ditched class when I was in high school, and I did those kinds of things that frustrated my parents when I was in seventh grade. The dress code, you couldn’t wear jeans or midriff tops. And so me and my friends wore jeans and midriff tops just to get under the skin of the principal and the folks at my junior high.

And so, sure, I have a little bit of a rebellious streak because I kind of feel– and even now, I’m feeling like I don’t want to go with the status quo a lot of times. I really want to do things differently and help people to feel different about politics and about elected officials, and about government. I want more grassroots people to feel like they’re part of the system, and that it’s something that’s not out of reach for them.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Well, I mean, even you just saying that you love politics, I mean, that’s kind of a radical thing to say.

DEB HAALAND: Yeah, it is, especially in this day and age. There’s a lot of divisiveness. I’m proud of my bipartisan work when I was in Congress and proud that I got bills across the finish line and had them signed into law by President Trump. I even implemented some of those bills when I was Secretary of the Interior.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Well, let’s talk a little bit about some of your previous stints. You were Secretary of the Interior. You started in 2021. This seems like a big department.

DEB HAALAND: Very big. Yes, 70,000 career staff, 70,000 career staff and an $18 billion annual budget, which I did for four consecutive years.

FLORA LICHTMAN: What is the Interior do? What’s the job?

DEB HAALAND: Yeah, the top line. They manage all of our public lands– all the national parks, all the wildlife refuges, all the BLM lands. They’re responsible. They have the United States Geological Survey. So that is responsible for the science.

The USGS does so many important things. They measure streams. They measure rain. They look at volcanoes and earthquakes and things of that nature.

The department is also responsible for the trust responsibility for our 574 federally recognized tribes through the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It also has the Bureau of Indian Education. So they’re responsible for a number of tribally run or BIE-run schools across the country. That was all under my responsibility.

But you end up having this really strong emotional connection to so many things that the Interior does. I grew up outdoors. My dad grew up on a farm. My mom’s dad was a farmer also.

We were just outdoors all the time. And I grew up that way. And I have an affinity for everything outside. I’d rather be outside than anywhere.

And so I felt really dedicated. It’s easy to be dedicated in that department to the people and the animals and the landscapes that we managed because it plays such a large role just in American life.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Yes, yes. I think that’s so true. And also, public lands, there are all these competing interests. They have different meaning and different value to different people, probably even within Interior itself. There’s recreation and conservation and extraction.

And I wondered how you thought about balancing those priorities. And if you learned anything or anything surprised you after you were in the post.

DEB HAALAND: So, yes, I mean, and it’s interesting that you use the word balance because that’s what I promised to do. I manage our public lands in a balance. And there’s a multi-purpose mandate from Congress to manage our public lands. And not just one industry should be dictating what happens on our public lands.

And so I really felt committed to that multi-purpose use and ensuring that people had a seat at the table to talk about these things. And in fact, we said that conservation should be one of the multi-use purposes, which I thought was a really great idea.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Was that not true before?

DEB HAALAND: Well, I mean, in many administrations, there’s generally one industry that essentially moved our public lands forward.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Do you mean the oil and gas industry?

DEB HAALAND: Yes, the oil and gas industry and everybody. A lot of folks really feel like you should just give carte blanche to the gas and oil industry. And, I mean, I think all industries, regardless of what the industry does, I think they all have a responsibility to our communities, to our environment, to everything. Especially now, in this era of climate change, we need every industry to be sustainable.

FLORA LICHTMAN: I want to talk about climate change a little bit. From your time in Congress and at the Interior, what did you learn about what is actually effective in terms of making change? Do we need more lawsuits or science that quantifies the costs of climate disasters? How do we move this forward?

DEB HAALAND: So we always need more lawsuits, I think, because people don’t want to play by the rules.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Deb Haaland, I love politics, and we always need more lawsuits. Not exactly what I expected from this interview.

DEB HAALAND: I mean, we have an attorney general here in New Mexico. We sued the Trump administration like 43 times or more because they’re not living up to their obligations to our state.

So I mean, when people want to harm the environment and they’re breaking the law to do it, then they should be held accountable. It’s about accountability. But we always need science too. We need those experts to tell us what we need to do in order to have a future for our children.

And so I believe in science. I believe in the law. Science and the law– those are two important things. As we see right now, this administration is working to circumvent the law, to do away with the law, to reinterpret the law to their own desires. And when people try to do that, then they kind of deserve to get sued, in my opinion.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Well, spoken like a true lawyer, someone who’s been to law school.

DEB HAALAND: Well, I’m actually not a lawyer, though. I don’t practice law, and I’ve never practiced law. And this is in the book, too. I didn’t pass my bar exam. And so I’m law trained, and I respect lawyers because I think that–

FLORA LICHTMAN: Hear that, lawyers? You got a backer here.

DEB HAALAND: I have immense respect for lawyers. I know that’s not the status quo, but I told you, I’m against the status quo.

FLORA LICHTMAN: [LAUGHS] We have to take a break. But when we come back, I want to ask you a little bit about your life outside of politics, if that’s OK.

DEB HAALAND: Sure.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Don’t go away.

You’re so candid in the book, and you just mentioned you failed the bar. You’re not putting on airs, which feels honestly, a little unusual for a politician. Why did you choose to be open about all these things?

DEB HAALAND: Because I think the public deserves transparency. And I mean, I also feel with respect to my alcoholism, I’m over 30 years sober. Can I set an example for folks who are struggling? Can I help people who are struggling to feel like they’re not alone and that there’s hope for them?

If we are honest about who we are, then it helps me to feel like, yeah, I have nothing to hide so I don’t have to worry about what I say. I can just be honest about everything. And I feel that’s important.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Your dad was in the military, and you moved around a lot as a kid and also as an adult. I’m sure you had to reinvent yourself over and over. What did you learn from that?

DEB HAALAND: Well, I mean, I think when you’re moving around a lot as a kid, you just learn to be resilient. Whenever we moved, the Marine Corps would send the movers to our house. They’d pack everything up and then move it in a moving van to our new destination.

And all the boxes would be labeled– kid’s room, kitchen, blah, blah, blah. So they dump all the kid’s room boxes in our rooms. And we were responsible for unpacking. We were just kids, like 5 and 6 years old. And my mom made us work. She made us be responsible for our things.

And so I appreciated all of that. I appreciated not being coddled and just knowing that I was responsible for myself and my things. And as a result, I was responsible for making new friends and meeting new teachers and learning how to get along in school, and so forth. And I think it taught me a lot, but definitely resiliency.

FLORA LICHTMAN: You mentioned earlier that you’d always rather be outside. Do you have a favorite moment in nature or a favorite place?

DEB HAALAND: I mean, if I have a favorite moment. There are places that have made me cry because they’re so profound, beautiful, immense. I cried the first time I went to Yosemite. I’d never been there before.

And so I think when I crewed for some runners for the Badwater ultramarathon the first time, I crewed for this runner. It ends at the Mount Whitney Portal Road. It’s 8,000 feet up. And so when I got to the end of the race, I looked up. I looked up in the sky. It was midnight or so, and I had never seen a sky like that. It was so dark, and there were just stars.

It was crazy. I felt like I was in space or something. And it’s profound. I mean, yeah, times like that, makes me cry.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Why do you think it’s so emotional?

DEB HAALAND: So I was at a reading. Linda Hogan was one of my favorite Native authors. I went to one of her readings one time, and she said something like, not one drop of water has come into or left our planet in 4.6 billion years. Think about that.

And what we have on Earth is what we have. We’re not bringing in new raw materials from Mars or the moon or anything like that. We have what we have on this Earth. And so we have to watch out for these things.

And when I was at the Mount Whitney Portal Road in that dark sky, I was like, my ancestors saw these stars. My ancestors 1,000 years ago saw this sky or felt the way that we feel, that I feel right now. We’re descendants of people who recognize the value of our natural resources and what our Earth brings to us.

And so many people have lost that along the way. And I just feel so profoundly committed to the fact that we should always appreciate that, that we should appreciate Earth and our natural resources because we’re such a part of it. We’re a part of that. I mean, feelings that well up in folks when you’re standing at a waterfall or walking across an icy cold stream, or I mean, these things, we should never take those for granted.

FLORA LICHTMAN: I think that’s the perfect note to end on. Deb Haaland is the former Secretary of the Department of the Interior during the Biden administration. Her new book, a memoir, is called A Voice Like Mine. Deb Haaland, thank you for talking with me today.

DEB HAALAND: Thank you.

FLORA LICHTMAN: It was really a pleasure. Annette Heist produced this episode. Do us a favor. Rate and review the podcast. I recommend five stars. Thank you for listening. I’m Flora Lichtman.

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